Congratulations! I had an identical story 2 years ago.

Awesome results klayymann. No conviction anyway you can get it is a win in my book.

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Ticketcombat, your site was essential in the research i did. Thanks!

looking back at my first ticket i should have immediately asked for an adjornment!! keep pushing those dates back if you can.

Question i have...
I asked for both disclosure and discovery via certified mail, the cop called me a week after and told me that i had to apply at the prosecuters office (which i did), could i have ignored his advise and just waited for a return letter?? he did mention that manuals refering to the radar used are at the office, but i didnt see them when i applied in person.

Thanks for your comments on my site. I like to hear that it helps people!

You only send disclosure to the Crown. It's their responsibility to provide it to you. (They usually forward it to the cop, but let them do that).

Most Crown offices have a binder with every laser and radar manual. Your request to see it is almost never responded to except to copy the testing pages. If you push for it, they usually allow you to view it at their office. But you don't want to push for it. Use the lack of disclosure to apply for a stay.

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Does anyone know where i can locate the following readings to use as references for my 11(b) application?

R. v. Mastroianni, [2000] O.J. No. 3227 at pg. , (Ont. Ct. Jus. In Appeal),
R. v. Formosa, [1998] O.J. No. 4674 (Ont. Ct. Jus.).

Thanks

Is a "stay" the same as a "dismissal" (or finding of not-guilty).

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Not getting convicted can happen in three ways:

- the charge is withdrawn
- you are found not guilty
- the charge is stayed.

Stay means stop. Stop all proceedings. You are not found innocent. You are not found guilty. It just stops, though technically it's still on the books. And it stays that way.

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http://www.canlii.org

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if you please provide the link
i search for "Mastroianni 2000" or "Formosa 1998" but no relevant case came up

So i plan to go to 1530 Markham today to submit Form 4F to the prosecutor and to the court, and will fax the form to Attorney general of Canada and of Ontario later today.

I went to prosecutor office 1st, the receptionist was very hostile and she only stamped 3 copies. She kept one and I took 2 copies down to 1st floor to serve the court.

It was packed with people and it took me 2.5 hours waiting.

Finally it was my turn and the clerk told me she needed confirmation that i have served the Attorney general of Canada and of Ontario (the prosecutor stamp already there). I told her that i would fax to them when i get back to work, she then refused to stamp the form and told me to come back after getting the other 2 confirmations.

I explained to her that i didnot know that, that i was also told on the phone that i could fax the form to the court or submit it in person. And that if i was to fax the form then how she could be able to comfirm the the other two faxes.

She said who told me to fax here, form 4F must be submitted in person, fax is not accepted. (story is different from what i was told over the phone, it seems to me the word "4F" really ticked them off)

But i chose to submit it in person and here i was wating for 2.5 hours to be told that i have to come back to start again.

I also asserted that if she did not want to stamp the form i would need to know what her name is. She pulled back a bit.

She finally talked to another clerk who said that they could stamp the form (or whatever paper i give to them) and put into the file but there is no guarentee that it will be delivered.

They both then walked away and finally the 1st clerk came back and stamped the form.

My question: is it possible that the form got stamped but it will be sitting on the file and not delivered as the clerk said?

Does that mean I need to come back and do it again after faxing to the Attorney general of Canada and of Ontario? I have untill this friday to decide if i have to come back to redo it.

This stuff drives me nuts. Good for you that you held your ground. I actually updated my site this weekend with even more information on stay applications because too many court clerks are out of control.

The job of the clerk is to deliver the document to the court. The court decides if it's valid, NOT the clerk. You have done your part. You delivered the document to the court and the prosecutor and the AGs by now. Just keep the fax receipts as proof of service. You're done.

Good luck with the stay by the way!

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Enter it like you typed it here

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Thanks Ticketcombat and Reflections.

Lesson learned for other members submitting Form 4F:

Ontario Court of Justice is your last stop, the clerk may require you to show confirmation that you already serve The Attorney general of Canada, of Ontario and the prosecutor office.

Charge: Speeding 60 (reduced from 64) in 40 zone, 11+ months delay, 1st trial day, illegible officer’s note.

I went to court in the morning to check the docket, the cop only had 2 cases for the day. My thinking was that 80% he would not show up. I went back in the afternoon for my trial, I was wrong the cop showed up (for only 2 cases???) (My guess was that the 11b threshold is 1 year, so they want the 2 cases 11 and 11+ months going to trial to kill the 11b chance before its birth)

I posted before about the Court clerk requiring proof of serving 4F to Attorney General of Can and of On or she would not stamp the form or the form would not be delivered.

The JP had my 4F and the Crown said my paper was in proper order after checking my faxes to the 2 Attorney Gen. This confirmed that the court clerk did b*llsh*t me by requiring proof of serving the 2 Attorney generals when submitting form 4F.

My stay application had only form 4F and attachments (notice of trial, copies of tickets, officer’s note…) I did not use affidavit.

My first line of defense was the charter motion s11(b) and s7 (I didn’t expect a stay),if failed I would request an adjournment due to inadequate disclosure (I expected this to be the outcome) if failed and they force the trial, I would invoke the interpreter right to put the trial over. If the trial takes place I have a long list of questions for Mr. officer on the witness stand including taking me thru the 4 lidar tests in details (it’s good for the officer to review it once in a while)

To justify the request for disclosure I printed case law R. v. Abrey, [2007] S.J. No. 331 in paragraph [6] the Crown was ordered to produce typed copy of the officer’s note.

I only found one case in CanLii, R. v. Wheeler, 2007 CanLII 14854 (NL P.C.) para[8] where calibration log and repair history were provided (In other cases the court found that the cal log and repair history were relevant and ordered the search for them)

There are many case laws supporting the disclosure of Lidar/Radar manual and officer’s training certificate (no need to list here).

I checked in with the prosecutors, there were 2 of them: Junior (trainee) and Senior.
They both tried to get me plead guilty for 10 over numerous times throughout the break. They said that my delay was less than one year and if I lost the charter motion, the deal would be off and the original charge of 64km/h would be used (Mr. officer yelled out “64 not 60” from the back of the court room to inform me of his presence).

The Senior asked if I had representative to argue my charter motion, I said I would do it myself. (I think he felt better)

There was a lady with stop sign ticket also wanting to go to trial. The Senior decided that he would take my speeding case and the Junior would do the lady stop sign case. My case went up first.

After arraignment, I read:” Prior to enter a plea Your Worship, I move that these proceedings be stayed on the grounds that”
I memorized them but at this point I was so nervous that I just read it from my note. The JP cut me off “Stop”.

I thought he was going to throw the book at me for reading a phrase copied from Ticketcombat site, but no, he figured that I did request interpreter on the Notice of Trial and wanted to know why there was no interpreter present. The Court clerk confirmed that interpreter was ordered. The Senior Crown apologized and asked the JP for a short delay to page the interpreter.

The lady stop sign case went forward. The Junior did a good job in the hall way of convincing her to plead guilty. One minute, her case was done. My case was called back.

No interpreter responded, the Senior tried his last pitch, asked me if I was comfortable to proceed without interpreter. I told him my listening was not that good. He then told the court that he had no choice but to withdraw the charge. Bingo! My day off work (from vacation) was well worth it.

There was no way of knowing how the stay application and the disclosure battle would unfold.

Thanks to everybody in the forum, special thanks to Ticketcombat and his website for guiding me thru the whole process and answering many questions (in here and in RFD)

Sorry if it was a long reading, I tried to have as much info in as I could, hoping to help anyone looking to defend his/her case.

Good job. They aren't as big and scary as they seem....

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