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stopping for a school bus
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:20 pm 
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I have taken the school bus for years and i know when the driver sees someone pass while their stop sign is out they will write down the license plate #. A couple of days ago I was driving home and the school bus was just stopping and it's sign was just starting to come out. I was right in front of the bus and slowed down instinctively but decided i could not stop safely b/c of ice and there was another driver behind me so i proceeded. I do not think i blatantly ran the sign b/c if i had stopped i would have stopped at the end of the bus, just because of the timing of when the bus driver had started putting out the stop sign. As i was slowing down i notice the driver was staring at me and I was curious if she did report me, how does fighting a ticket like this work? I mean there was no way i could stop ahead of the bus and she had started putting out the sign as i was passing the bus. Any thoughts?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:38 pm 
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Duty of drivers when school bus stopped
175.(11) Every driver or street car operator, when meeting on a highway, other than a highway with a median strip, a stopped school bus that has its overhead red signal-lights flashing, shall stop before reaching the bus and shall not proceed until the bus moves or the overhead red signal-lights have stopped flashing. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 175 (11).
Idem
175.(12) Every driver or street car operator on a highway, when approaching from the rear a stopped school bus that has its overhead red signal-lights flashing, shall stop at least twenty metres before reaching the bus and shall not proceed until the bus moves or the overhead red signal-lights have stopped flashing. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 175 (12).




The way I read it, it IS LEGAL to pass a bus that is still in motion. Bus drivers routinely throw their stop sign out long before they have come to a complete stop. I know I'd ignore it if I was in motion along side a bus that was also in motion.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:44 pm 
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You didn't get a ticket..so why worry?

How can you get a ticket based on some else's claim or report? You can't! It Makes no sense. So no need to worry about this.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:58 pm 
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admin wrote:
How can you get a ticket based on some else's claim or report? You can't!


That happens on every collision with a charge. All evidence from someon other than the police. Similiar to someone "cut me off" calls in to police and maintains sight until stopped by police. Statement to police and a charge can be laid based on the evidence of the other driver.

A school bus one is even easier now. All the bus driver has to do is give the plate, the vehicle failed to stop and the registered owner will be issued a ticket. If that goes to court, it is the bus drivers evidence of date/time.

I do think a "law" could be put in to make it mandatory that school bus would have a amber light come on as they brake to give drivers a heads up they will be stopping and red lights will soon be flashing....kind of like a stop light.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:49 pm 
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hwybear wrote:
admin wrote:
How can you get a ticket based on some else's claim or report? You can't!


That happens on every collision with a charge. All evidence from someon other than the police. Similiar to someone "cut me off" calls in to police and maintains sight until stopped by police. Statement to police and a charge can be laid based on the evidence of the other driver.

A school bus one is even easier now. All the bus driver has to do is give the plate, the vehicle failed to stop and the registered owner will be issued a ticket. If that goes to court, it is the bus drivers evidence of date/time.



I can understand if it was part of an accident, but how can you prove in court that somebody ran a red light, after the fact? No police saw the incident, but a random passerby was the only Witness.

What is the credibility of that Witness? What if he was biased or had a grudge?

I think proving this case for the crown would not be so easy.

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Last edited by admin on Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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well..
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:18 pm 
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This is very confusing to me actually now that I've done some research about it.
->OCT '08
"Under the new regulations, a police officer does not need
to witness the vehicle passing a stopped school bus with
its upper red lights flashing for charges to be laid
against the vehicle owner. Citizens who witness such
occurrences can contact the police and provide the make,
model, colour of vehicle; licence number; location, date
and time of the incident; and, if possible, a description
of the driver."

http://www.ottawapolice.ca/en/serving_o ... 08&pm=true

i guess it's their word against whoever they report.

i'm only worrying because i don't know what that bus driver was thinking and it's a pretty hefty consequence to be convicted of this. thats all.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:35 pm 
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Okk...That is something!

I would love to see a public case about this.

I guess we all should worry now :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:09 am 
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The Highway Traffic Act says, in a fairly convoluted way, that if an officer did not charge you at the roadside, you can get a ticket similar to a red-light camera ticket or photo radar ticket. It is sent to the registered owner. If you are charged as the owner (ie. cop didn't stop), no summons is issued. The max fine is $2000, but if charged under this provision (as the owner), similar to red light camera and photo radar tickets, there are no demerit points and your insurance company will not be notified. I think the set fine is $400 if charged as the owner.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:42 am 
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I can't see where it says, "you can't pass a school bus with it's flashing lights on". Sure it applies if the bus is STOPPED or if you are more than 20 metres behind it.

What do you do if you are under 20 metres by the time the bus stops?? I would deduce that you can pass legally. The bus driver would have the responsibility of NOT opening the door until it is clear that all cars have stopped.

Why are we so quick to believe a school bus driver over the ticketed driver??

A very confusing scenario with a VERY nasty penalty.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:23 pm 
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Bookm wrote:
Why are we so quick to believe a school bus driver over the ticketed driver??



That's what I would like to know too.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:31 pm 
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admin wrote:
Bookm wrote:
Why are we so quick to believe a school bus driver over the ticketed driver??



That's what I would like to know.


I would suggest drivers drive more cautiously around the school bus, it is small kids after all. Rather the others around error in the side of caution. Any school bus I have ever seen also ensures traffic is a reasonable distance away before putting on the reds. A lot use 4 ways to let drivers know they are about to stop

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:35 pm 
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admin wrote:
I can understand if it was part of an accident, but how can you prove in court that somebody ran a red light, after the fact? No police saw the incident, but a random passerby was the only Witness. .


Still the same as a collision, no police saw the incident, it is after the fact the charge is still laid.

Even for collisions that go to court, police have little to add as a statement. Driver 1 was so and so, Driver 2 was so and so. Road looks like this, weather was that. Damage on Vehicles was here (to which each person could also state)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:23 pm 
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Yea I agree, and of course you should drive safely around children and school buses.

But I don't agree entirely with the Liberty extended to Bus Drivers. Why is their word and judgment becoming a Convicting factor for the other drivers?

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proper distance
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:03 pm 
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This kind of ticket, I would think, would be easy to fight because of the circumstances. Only a cop's word would be taken over your own, even though a bus driver might have a little bit more favour in the eyes of the judge. But it all depends on the defence lawyer... if you argue you have no choice but to pass because otherwise you would've slammed into the back of the bus, it doesn't bode well for you, because you're supposed to have sufficient space between the vehicle in front of you at all times, and that distance depends on the road conditions. You are required to travel only at speeds at which you can stop for any hazard safely, and if you were forced to pass the bus, regardless of how quickly it stopped, it would be deemed you were driving recklessly.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:51 pm 
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oh i definitely agree about using extra caution around school buses. however in a situation like i described i was not behind the bus, i was going the opposite way. when the driver started to put out the flashing sign i was at a point where i could not stop before the front of the bus safely. i did instinctively slow down quite a bit so as i actually passed under the sign (now fully out) and the driver's window it may have seemed to her like i went through the sign deliberately.

oh well thanks for the info.


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