So my brother got a ticket for speeding 139 in a 100 on the 407. We're 17 months out with 2 months of delay owing to us, so 15 months and have already filed an 11b motion. But in case we do have to go to trial I also asked for disclosure. I used ticket combat's form. They never provided me with the text of the law that they allege he broke. I asked for type written notes and was refused because they said the notes were legible. They neither provided me with the back of the officer's copy of the ticket nor did they offer any explanation of why not. I asked for a copy of the officer's schedule for that day and was refused saying that it wasn't relevant. I asked for documentation/proof of the officer's training on the lidar and was refused saying I could ask the officer in cross examination. I asked for a copy of the subpoena issued or request for access to information pursuant to the privacy act used in order to get a copy of my brother's driving record and was refused because they said they didn't have the MTO record. The officer had to have been speeding to get where he was in order to catch my brother where he did. He travelled over 83 km in less than 30 minutes. His notes indicate 2 different on shift times. Which is why we asked for his schedule for that day. I think they have to give proof of his lidar training in advance if asked for it don't they? Finally, in the original disclosure they did provide us with a copy of his MTO record and now they are saying they don't have it? Also, for the lidar testing, do they have to test it when they come on shift or when they are on site? And when they have to test it after they clock you? Immediately after? An hour after? two? And where is the legislation that dictates this? Any help or suggestions are appreciated. Thanks!
So my brother got a ticket for speeding 139 in a 100 on the 407.
We're 17 months out with 2 months of delay owing to us, so 15 months and have already filed an 11b motion. But in case we do have to go to trial I also asked for disclosure. I used ticket combat's form.
They never provided me with the text of the law that they allege he broke. I asked for type written notes and was refused because they said the notes were legible. They neither provided me with the back of the officer's copy of the ticket nor did they offer any explanation of why not.
I asked for a copy of the officer's schedule for that day and was refused saying that it wasn't relevant.
I asked for documentation/proof of the officer's training on the lidar and was refused saying I could ask the officer in cross examination.
I asked for a copy of the subpoena issued or request for access to information pursuant to the privacy act used in order to get a copy of my brother's driving record and was refused because they said they didn't have the MTO record.
The officer had to have been speeding to get where he was in order to catch my brother where he did. He travelled over 83 km in less than 30 minutes. His notes indicate 2 different on shift times. Which is why we asked for his schedule for that day.
I think they have to give proof of his lidar training in advance if asked for it don't they?
Finally, in the original disclosure they did provide us with a copy of his MTO record and now they are saying they don't have it?
Also, for the lidar testing, do they have to test it when they come on shift or when they are on site? And when they have to test it after they clock you? Immediately after? An hour after? two? And where is the legislation that dictates this?
Sorry to disappoint, but... Text of the law is not required in a speeding case. Typed notes would only be considered, as they indicated, if the notes were illegible. The back of the ticket may be blank and have no evidence that will help you. Police officers are allowed to exceed the speed limit during the course of their duties. This will not exonerate your brother. If it does go to court, I'd stay away from red herrings like this. 95% of the time they completely backfire and get the JP steaming mad. Negative. The officer's testimony that he is current and qualified is sufficient. The Crown does not need a huge mountain of evidence to convict someone on a speeding charge. If they gave you the officer's notes and a copy of the relevant parts of the LIDAR manual, you have complete disclosure. You only need sufficient evidence to make a full answer and defence to the charge. The evidence that the Crown will present is limited, so that also means disclosure is limited. As for the testing before and after the stop, it only needs to be done at some point prior to the stop, and at some point after. No time frame is given in any legislation. The reason for this is because each device and manufacturer is different, so the time frame for the before-and-after tests is given in the manual only. If the device was tested within the limits given by the manufacturer, and in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions, the tests were done properly. Generally, the device will be tested at the beginning of the shift and at the end. This is the best avenue of defence. If they have caused a delay of 15 months, then it should be accepted and the proceedings should be stayed.
Sorry to disappoint, but...
Jaydee wrote:
They never provided me with the text of the law that they allege he broke. I asked for type written notes and was refused because they said the notes were legible. They neither provided me with the back of the officer's copy of the ticket nor did they offer any explanation of why not.
Text of the law is not required in a speeding case. Typed notes would only be considered, as they indicated, if the notes were illegible. The back of the ticket may be blank and have no evidence that will help you.
Jaydee wrote:
The officer had to have been speeding to get where he was in order to catch my brother where he did. He travelled over 83 km in less than 30 minutes. His notes indicate 2 different on shift times. Which is why we asked for his schedule for that day.
Police officers are allowed to exceed the speed limit during the course of their duties. This will not exonerate your brother. If it does go to court, I'd stay away from red herrings like this. 95% of the time they completely backfire and get the JP steaming mad.
Jaydee wrote:
I think they have to give proof of his lidar training in advance if asked for it don't they?
Negative. The officer's testimony that he is current and qualified is sufficient. The Crown does not need a huge mountain of evidence to convict someone on a speeding charge. If they gave you the officer's notes and a copy of the relevant parts of the LIDAR manual, you have complete disclosure. You only need sufficient evidence to make a full answer and defence to the charge. The evidence that the Crown will present is limited, so that also means disclosure is limited.
As for the testing before and after the stop, it only needs to be done at some point prior to the stop, and at some point after. No time frame is given in any legislation. The reason for this is because each device and manufacturer is different, so the time frame for the before-and-after tests is given in the manual only. If the device was tested within the limits given by the manufacturer, and in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions, the tests were done properly. Generally, the device will be tested at the beginning of the shift and at the end.
Jaydee wrote:
We're 17 months out with 2 months of delay owing to us, so 15 months and have already filed an 11b motion.
This is the best avenue of defence. If they have caused a delay of 15 months, then it should be accepted and the proceedings should be stayed.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca
Thanks you guys. We went to court and I argued the 11b. The JP was barely listening and ruled against us. In his decision, he mixed up the delays and attributed them to us when they belonged to the crown and it was quite clear from the transcripts provided that it was the crown's delay. As the case went on, we ended up having to adjourn due to a conflict of interest that came up. The crown had a pretty solid case, but they offered us a deal and so the ticket dropped from 39 over to 10 over. I appreciate you guys weighing in with your advice and opinions. Thanks again!
Thanks you guys.
We went to court and I argued the 11b. The JP was barely listening and ruled against us. In his decision, he mixed up the delays and attributed them to us when they belonged to the crown and it was quite clear from the transcripts provided that it was the crown's delay.
As the case went on, we ended up having to adjourn due to a conflict of interest that came up. The crown had a pretty solid case, but they offered us a deal and so the ticket dropped from 39 over to 10 over.
I appreciate you guys weighing in with your advice and opinions. Thanks again!
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