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Ontario Highway Traffic Act

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79 in a 50 ticket
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:46 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:21 pm
Posts: 8
Looking for advise on how to fight this ticket. I believe the officer booked a car in front of me but not sure it's admissible in court.
-Court date is over a year from date of offense
Already received officers notes and radar manual

Thanks

Links to scanned docs:

http://i.imgur.com/Uc4dvTWh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/uIa7ADch.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5WAil1Vh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ZK8bPgVh.jpg


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Re: 79 in a 50 ticket
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 3:41 pm 
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igota wrote:
I believe the officer booked a car in front of me but not sure it's admissible in court.


Are you saying the officer got the speed of the wrong vehicle? The notes mention you were the closest vehicle to him and that you were pulling away from the traffic behind you (traffic 100m behind). Notes are pretty good. Doesn't sound like that argument could get you very far.


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Re: 79 in a 50 ticket
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 3:46 pm 
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It was going around a bend and there was a car in front of me. But it's pretty much his word.


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Re: 79 in a 50 ticket
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:07 pm 
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igota wrote:
It was going around a bend and there was a car in front of me. But it's pretty much his word.


Once you start talking about bends in the road you put yourself in a vulnerable position. Going around a bend will only have your speed read out slower than it was, so if they follow the officers notes, it kind of makes you look worse than it already is. It's not going to make your conviction any worse, but you might not want to be that guy who goes in and talks about mistaken identity and bends in the road.

Have you had any early resolution meetings or did you simply plead not guilty the first time around and received that notice of trial?


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Re: 79 in a 50 ticket
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 5:00 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:18 pm
Posts: 1470
So just note that if you go to trial, they will amend the speed up to 81 in a 50 (31 over) as that is what the officers notes say. From demerit perspective, I think 31 over is 4 points and 29 over is 3 points, but demerits have nothing to do with insurance. From an insurance perspective, 29 over and 31 over are both minor and are viewed the same by insurance company, so either one will have the exact same effect on your insurance rates.

Officer notes look execellent with nothing missing. If you testify that there was a car in front of you and officer says there was not, they will usually believe the officer in less you have a second witness that can testify and verify your side of the story.

When did you request a trial? Right away, or did you choose Early Resolution first? The counting of time for a "speedy trial" charter argument does not start until you request a trial. So if you requested trial right away when you got ticket, then it would be over 11 months which would give you a good chance of succeeding with a charter argument.

If you go to trial, you should not testify unless you 100% can say that you were not speeding at all. Speeding is absolute liability so if you get on the stand and say you were only going even 1 km/h over the speed limit then you have admitted to speeding and then with the officer saying you were going 81 they will ding you with the 31 over. So if you were not speeding at all then you can get on the stand and tell what happened. If you were speeding even 1km/h over then do not get on the stand and do not testify and do not give your side of the story.

So besides the possible charter argument above, cross-examination and bringing doubt to officers testimony is the only way to win.
Read these posts:
topic7039.html -> Representing yourself
topic7041.html -> Cross-examination
topic7284.html -> Win speeding trial
topic7286.html -> Win speeding trial on appeal

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Re: 79 in a 50 ticket
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:18 pm 
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Had a look at Google maps. It's not much of a bend.

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Former Ontario Police Officer. Advice will become less relevant as the time goes by !


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Re: 79 in a 50 ticket
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:19 am 
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Thanks for suggestions. I requested the trial about a week after the ticket was issued. Looks like my best case scenario is speaking with prosecutor before trial to get this ticket reduced.

Thanks.


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Re: 79 in a 50 ticket
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:50 am 
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igota wrote:
Thanks for suggestions. I requested the trial about a week after the ticket was issued. Looks like my best case scenario is speaking with prosecutor before trial to get this ticket reduced.

Thanks.


If you asked a trial a week later, it'll be over a year from the day you declared your intentions to go to trial. You can always go down that route.

You don't got much to lose, anyways. Even if you had a trial, all you'd be doing is risking yourself some points and a few dollars, but the points expire June 2017 anyways.

If you're a novice driver, it's a different story. You'll probably want to avoid a trial. 31km (as originally charged) would get you 4 points would have you suspended for 30 days.


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Re: 79 in a 50 ticket
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:51 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:08 pm
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Location: Ontario
You have a decent chance of a stay based on a charter violation of your right to a speedy trial. 11b
A stay means no conviction or fine whatsoever.


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Re: 79 in a 50 ticket
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:06 am 
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ynotp wrote:
You have a decent chance of a stay based on a charter violation of your right to a speedy trial. 11b
A stay means no conviction or fine whatsoever.


Thanks for your suggestion. Any resources you can point me to to figure out the process?


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Re: 79 in a 50 ticket
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:07 am 
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bend wrote:
igota wrote:
Thanks for suggestions. I requested the trial about a week after the ticket was issued. Looks like my best case scenario is speaking with prosecutor before trial to get this ticket reduced.

Thanks.


If you asked a trial a week later, it'll be over a year from the day you declared your intentions to go to trial. You can always go down that route.

You don't got much to lose, anyways. Even if you had a trial, all you'd be doing is risking yourself some points and a few dollars, but the points expire June 2017 anyways.

If you're a novice driver, it's a different story. You'll probably want to avoid a trial. 31km (as originally charged) would get you 4 points would have you suspended for 30 days.


I am not a novice driver but already have a minor infraction from 2 years ago. would like to avoid another conviction.


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Re: 79 in a 50 ticket
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:14 pm 
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Posts: 193
jsherk wrote:
So just note that if you go to trial, they will amend the speed up to 81 in a 50 (31 over) as that is what the officers notes say.


Can they amend the speed back up? According to the computer generated notes (First Page of Disclosure) it said charged speed 79 and actual speed 79. Also on the ticket, it doesn't have a reduced code (R) on it. Just curious on this one.


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Re: 79 in a 50 ticket
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:04 pm 
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They do not have to mark anywhere that it was reduced. On the last page of dislcosure, the officers notes say 81 even though the second last page says "actual:79". So if the officer testifies to the 81 speed, then they can amend it up. Just because there is discrepency in notes is not really an issue as it will be the officers testimony that counts.

Usually they will tell you they are going to amend it up before the trial, and then they will usually advise the JP when the trial starts that they are going to amend it up. They can not officially amend it up though until there is evidence of the higher speed (until the officer actually testifies to the higher speed).

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Re: 79 in a 50 ticket
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:05 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:18 pm
Posts: 1470
11b charter application info:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_E ... d_Freedoms

topic2952.html

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Re: 79 in a 50 ticket
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:16 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:21 pm
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jsherk wrote:


Looking at different guides, i am confused about which forms must be submitted for 11b application. Do i have to create 6 binders based on this sample: http://scopezoom.com/11b/StayPDF.pdf

or is 4 copies of FORM 4F (1 page) completed enough?

Confused...


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